As live music’s corporate giants continue to concentrate on market share dominance and revenue growth, the plight of independent operators battling to compete has never been fiercer. But as IQ discovers, the passion for delivering meaningful events, for artists and audiences alike, is continuing to drive these entrepreneurial outfits forward, albeit amid some challenging circumstances…

Covid may have been the final straw for many independent companies involved in live entertainment, as two years without income left some bankrupt and others disillusioned. But the enforced lockdowns also provided numerous professionals with the chance to set up their own companies, with the agency sector in particular experiencing the birth of numerous new outlets, including Mother Artists, One Fiinix Live, Runway and Midnight Mango, in the UK.

Compiling our inaugural indie-focussed edition of IQ, we heard from countless professionals who are either working at independent companies or running their own enterprises and the myriad challenges they face on a day-to-day basis. But their conviction to remain indie and to excel in their particular sectors or markets is inspiring.

And while Earth Agency’s Williamson believes it is slightly easier to operate as an independent now than when the company first started, it’s clear that in today’s live music business, the obstacles to remaining independent are high. Noting the camaraderie among the indie sector, Rev. Moose at New York-based Marauder comments, “We consider ourselves fortunate to have made strong relationships within the freelance community that allow us to support one another.” He notes that honesty is one of the guiding principles at Marauder, rather than the over-selling that some companies seem to expound. “We’re a small company that manages quite large programmes. Part of this is due to how we communicate with our clients, making sure they understand our practical limitations and needs as much as we understand theirs.”

“I have a healthy company, and I cannot see the benefit of being part of something else”

In Belgium, Steven Thomassen, founder of Toutpartout, is celebrating 30 years of being independent. “I love the luxury of only telling myself what I have to do and having the freedom to do that,” he says. “I don’t have many luxury demands: I don’t need a swimming pool or a big car because I like using public transport. And right now, I have a healthy company, and I cannot see the benefit of being part of something else.”

That’s a philosophy that strikes a chord with Conal Dodds at Crosstown Concerts in the UK. “I didn’t come into music just to make money. It’s a vocation, it’s something I love doing, and I still think I’m in it for the right reasons,” he tells IQ. “I’m not driven by money in the same way that a lot of people are – all I need is enough. Crosstown has 19 full-time employees, and I’d rather be in a position where I can pay them all a really good salary, and they can all have a nice existence, rather than just milking it all for myself.”

Outlining his decision to remain independent, Anthony Jouet of Prague-based promoters, Fource Entertainment, says, “There are no shareholders to tell me that we need to do 50% more shows next year or hit some crazy targets just to try to raise more money. We’d rather do the right shows and deliver them with the same quality of services we are known for than overwhelm myself and the team by booking so many shows that we’re not able to allocate proper time to them.”

That’s an approach that Greenhouse Talent founder Pascal Van De Velde sees as fundamental to his business. “I’ve had bosses before – really good ones who I could look up to,” he says. “But with the big corporations, your superiors are not always people that you look up to. In many cases, you report to the accounts department. Whereas, for me, it’s the music and the concerts and the artist relationships that are key. I don’t want anybody breathing down my neck about much money we’re going to make in six months’ time.”

“Global deals are a major game changer

Losing acts
For those on the promoting side of the fence, while there are always opportunities to begin working with exciting new talent, the increasing popularity of global tour deals is causing some to reconsider whether artist development is still worth investing the time.

Global deals “make our work massively more difficult, as we cannot ever be sure that we are still going to remain as promoters on the next cycle,” says Jouet. Indeed, he can cite examples. Among the acts Fource has worked with, up to arena level, are Imagine Dragons, Billie Eilish, and Twenty One Pilots. “But we lost the last tours to Live Nation because what they can offer the acts was obviously unbeatable,” says Jouet. “It’s a pattern that’s happening more and more. Global deals are a major game changer.”

Dodds has similar experiences. “Those bigger companies can say to new acts, ‘Well, if you don’t let us be your promoter, you won’t get our festivals.’ So, it’s definitely a struggle, but I would still rather be in a position where I know that I’m going to lose an act at a certain point in their career because they’re going to take a European deal or a worldwide deal. I can deal with that just as long as I’m not answerable to someone that’s based in LA or Berlin or wherever.

“I’m philosophical: you have to roll with the punches. But I do think it will get increasingly difficult over the next five to ten years for independent companies like Crosstown to exist, because there aren’t many that will be able to promote at a national level.”

“As an independent, you need to know your limit. And if you cross the line, you will get hurt”

Van De Velde takes another view: that not being part of a corporate structure allows him to operate free from a need to increase turnover or maintain a monopoly. “Our goal at Greenhouse, meanwhile, is directly connected to the profession, to the artists. It is to make a concert successful and an artist’s career successful – and that’s not a secondary goal. Of course, the competition from the corporations is enormous, so we have to make sure we are much better than they are – but there’s always room for boutiques and the personal touch.”

He continues, “If you’re a mid-size artist or manager and your guy in Benelux who you’ve worked with for 25 years has always done a good job – he’s very attentive and detailed about your career and knows your sensibilities – I think you’ll definitely consider working with a person like that, because you’re still in touch with the boss of the company.”

That sentiment is reflected on both sides of the Atlantic, with Jose Muniz at Mercury Concerts telling IQ, “Unlike big corporations that can afford to overpay an act for whatever reason – market share, world dominance, executive promotions and bonuses – as an independent, you need to know your limit. And if you cross the line, you will get hurt.”

However, nodding to his 12 years within the OCESA/T4F setup, Muniz adds that experience within a major company has helped shape his business since. “Personally, I learned to apply some of the corporate mentality to my independent operation: the discipline, the way I focus on results, and last but not least, to realise that my bank account, although solid, has limitations.”

“First and foremost, we’re all very entrepreneurial in spirit, and we are all very committed to our artists”

Agents of change
In March 2023, Primary Talent International announced a management buyout following CAA’s acquisition of ICM, Primary’s former parent company.

“First and foremost, we’re all very entrepreneurial in spirit, and we are all very committed to our artists,” says partner Sally Dunstone of Primary’s reinstated indie status. “We enjoy having the freedom to work with whichever artists we want on our roster, and we are very committed to making sure that they’re serviced as well as any other agency.”

And noting that the independent spirit can be a state of mind that can exist within individuals across the industry, she continues, “As an agent, you work with the people who you get on with the best, and there are many promoters at AEG, Eventim, Live Nation, and others, who were independent and then moved into that space, but they still have that indie, entrepreneurial approach.”

Indeed, believing that many live music professionals still pursue their careers from a position of passion, Dunstone adds, “It’s a vocation, it’s not a job, and you have to love it to be able to excel.

“As an agent, you wake up every day and you never know what challenge is going to hit you – it could be a thousand different things. But the important thing is how you react, and here at Primary, we’re a very strong, closeknit team, and we’re very collaborative in terms of solving issues that will benefit our artist clients and promoter partners.”

“I don’t have to ring anybody up to make a financial decision”

Highlighting the multiple hats that many indie operators wear in order to make ends meet, Thomassen explains that in addition to promoting shows across the Netherlands and Belgium, Toutpartout is also an established agency for international and domestic talent, while other sidelines include a record label and a record store.

And while some peers worry about global deals, he’s less concerned about losing talent. “I have a very long relationship with a lot of my acts. For instance, Beach House and Kurt Weill were sleeping on my couch when they first came over – they stayed in my house, and we grew up together. I think those acts don’t forget that because they also have this indie spirit,” says Thomassen.

“I still need to do my job properly, of course, delivering shows or festivals that a band or manager expects, because I’m sure they will move somewhere else if I don’t. And that sometimes still happens. But I love the bands I work with, and I love their music – it’s what I try to send out to the world and also to the promoters or the festivals. I’m not saying that in all the major companies that you’re a number, but it’s a different approach. For me, all of my acts are my priorities, so I give all my attention to them.”

Crosstown’s Dodds thinks the indie approach is, by definition, the most sustainable for the industry. “Nimble is a great way of putting it,” he says. “I don’t have to ring anybody up to make a financial decision. We’re easy to get hold of – the agents deal with me or the relevant promoter, they don’t have to wait for a decision because we’ve got to get someone to sign off our deals, for instance. And they’re not having to wait for six weeks to get paid because we’re a big corporate machine that is top heavy in terms of admin. We’re prompt payers.”

But he concludes that when it comes to independent promoters, at least, Crosstown and its compatriots around the world could become an endangered species.

“I’m never complacent. Even with acts I’ve worked with for a long time, you never know what’s around the corner”

“I’m never complacent. Even with acts I’ve worked with for a long time, you never know what’s around the corner, and I don’t have the pockets to dangle £100m cheques in front of them. And I don’t want to – I’m not in high finance, I’m in showbiz. Developing new acts has always been the thrill for me.

“I might find the hottest new thing and do a few gigs with them, and then suddenly they burst through to arena level, and suddenly Live Nation or AEG have signed them to a global deal. That’s the way the world works. But one of the things that my old Crosstown partner, Paul Hutton, always said was that he saw a future where there would be two or three companies that completely dominated the marketplace and owned everything. And when that happens, then the agents will have ceded too much power, too.”

In Spain, Xavi Manresa launched Cap-Cap Produccions in 1988, and admits he is becoming more reluctant about working on new acts only to lose them to global deals. “It’s hard to be independent, knowing that I’m probably not going to recuperate all the time and energy and money that I put into developing a band in the market. That’s why I don’t do that many new bands these days.” he says.

However, he discloses his own simple plan to reinvigorating those early independent sensibilities – the expansion of a new office in an emerging market – in Cap-Cap’s case, Tbilisi, Georgia. “It’s something really interesting for me because everything has to be built from the ground up,” he reports, “It’s like Spain in the 80s, but with more infrastructure because there’s already some people working there.”

And while he confesses he may launch a festival in Georgia, it’s the intimate shows that titillate the music fan within, keeping his indie spirit alive. “I’m not interested in arenas or stadiums. Who wants to see Green Day on a screen when you can do a club of 2,000 capacity?! That’s the kind of show I did for them in 2019,” Manresa adds.

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Session chair Tom Schroeder (Wasserman) recounted his first ILMC experiences when he was accosted by private jet brokers who were not exactly relevant for his jungle acts. As a result, he said he wanted to make this year’s agency session a little more accessible for all.

Jon Ollier (One Fiinix Live) spoke of his recent experience with the start of the Ed Sheeran tour and the excitement around it, noting that outdoor shows appear to be more exciting than those indoors.

Looking for the positives in the current state of live music, Schroeder reported that young acts who have come through the pandemic appear to want to have a lot more ownership of their careers, with Lucy Dickins (WME) agreeing that there is a culture shift happening among the younger generation.

Ollier opined that it’s not just a generational thing, but also financial, as lots of people are buying tickets late, meaning that promoters have to take a leap of faith in investing in their events in the hope that people do turn up at the last minute.

The agents said [ticket] prices are not likely to come down as the artist’s costs have also increased

Sally Dunstone (Primary Talent) told ILMC that avails appear to have reached a saturation point, making it tricky to get to that next step with new artists. But she said this forced agents to be more creative and look to work with different venues, for example.

“We have to advise the artist on how they get to that next step in the career and if that means telling them to wait, rather than go out now and do a tour that could harm their long term prospects,” said Dunstone.

She said that her decision to switch agencies was down to the pandemic, thinking in a more entrepreneurial manner and searching for new opportunities – a sentiment echoed by Ollier who launched his own agency, saying that it was the CAA ethos of exploring new avenues and trying to always find a brighter path, that had prompted him to decide to establish his own venture.

Looking at the year ahead, Ari Bernstein (ICM Partners) observed the effect that festivals might have on other touring, highlighting radius causes and the like as issues that need to be discussed. He said Covid had made him look around for all the other revenue sources that his clients as artists could benefit from, which was something that would strengthen the sector going forward.

Schroeder said the new breed of young manager wants their agents to be a bigger part of the artist’s journey

Bernstein agreed with Schroeder that the price of living is going to squeeze the fans and there will be an impact that we are yet to experience. He also cited the war in Ukraine, rising costs and higher ticket prices, but accepted that it is now part of an agent’s role to negotiate those challenges.

On the thorny question of ticket prices, the agents said those prices are not likely to come down as the artist’s costs have also increased. But they said acts are already looking to tour with smaller productions in a bid to save money, as well as considering sustainability matters.

Schroeder said the new breed of young manager wants their agents to be a bigger part of the artist’s journey, rather than just a cog in the wheel.

Dickins also applauded the entrepreneurial spirit among young acts and younger agents. “The artists that tell me what they want to do, not the other way around,” she revealed. “There are things they are telling me that I think ‘shit, I’ve got to read up on that,’” she added.

Turning to the future, Dunstone predicted that in three to five years’ time the business would be fully recovered and progressed from where it was pre-pandemic. “People are looking at content differently now,” she said citing acts that have done well through the likes of TikTok. “I think we’ll see a fresh batch of new headliners in five years’ time, that have come through the pandemic,” said Dunstone.

“The artists that tell me what they want to do, not the other way around”

Ollier joked that Dickins would be working at his agency in three years, but on a serious note, he said there would be a period of natural selection with artists, events and probably even agents.

“Change is good,” said Dickins. “It’s been boring to see the same headliners at festivals for 15 years. I’m excited about the change and I’m embracing it – it’s already happening.”

Schroeder noted that while festival programming had improved, diversity in the actual industry itself was poor, with Dickins agreeing that the business needs to be a lot better.

Schroeder concluded that this summer will be bumpy but that agents need to navigate it. Ollier said, “The art is going to get better and better, no matter what us industry idiots have got to do.” That struck a chord with his fellow agents, with Bernstein believing that there will be more doors opening for revenue streams than ever before, as people embrace entrepreneurial ideas and think outside the box.

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Top agents called for a more diverse, inclusive and equitable industry during last week’s ESNS (Eurosonic Noorderslag).

Hannah Shogbola (UTA), Natasha Gregory (Mother Artists), Sally Dunstone (Primary Talent International) and Whitney Boateng (WME) came together for the all-female Agents Panel – hailed as “a long-overdue milestone” by moderator Maria May (CAA).

“We are representing the change we want to see,” said May during her opening gambit for the digital session. “I believe the music industry has a duty to continue to strive forward post-pandemic be even more progressive, more inclusive, and representative of the world that we live in.”

However, WME’s Boateng says there’s a “lot more work that needs to be done in the industry”. “It is still predominantly old white male and it has been for years,” she added. “Change has to come from the top-down and it has to be more than black squares.”

UTA’s Shogbola agreed: “If you are looking around your office and it does not reflect the society that you live in and the roster that you look after, then there is something categorically wrong.”

Black squares were posted on social media as part of the music industry’s Blackout Tuesday movement, a protest against racism and police brutality in response to the killings of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor.

“As a black woman within this industry, it’s frustrating that even 15-20 years into my career, it takes the death of somebody like George Floyd for our industry to finally open its eyes,” said Shogbola.

“The industry has a duty to be even more progressive, more inclusive, and representative of the world that we live in”

Boateng pointed out that it’s not just racial inequalities that the industry needs to fix but also disparities around sexuality and gender, with the panel unanimously agreeing that diversity on line-ups is still “not good enough”.

“It’s so important that when anybody is going to a show, they feel like it’s a safe and inclusive space for them,” said Dunstone.

Elsewhere during the panel, Mother Artists’ Gregory says that flexibility towards employees’ work hours will also be a key feature in a more equitable post-pandemic industry.

“Working 9–5 is not equality because everybody has a different situation, a different experience and different needs,” argued Gregory. “Being an agent is not a 9–5 anyway so just put trust in your team – working hard is a given in this industry.”

Dunstone agreed: “Adaptability and flexibility are massive takeaways from the last two years. Hopefully, we’ll pick and choose the bits of [pandemic life] that worked for us.”

The 36th edition of ESNS took place under the banner ‘Building Back Better, Together’ and focussed on getting the industry back on its feet after two years of the pandemic.

The hybrid conference and festival wrapped on Friday (21 January) and Dago Houben, director of ESNS said that “despite the fact that there is definitely screen fatigue, we were able to perform our platform function for the national and international music industry.

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Sally Dunstone, formerly of X-ray Touring, has joined London-based Primary Talent International as an agent, bringing artists including Grammy-nominated rapper Jack Harlow and Brit Awards Rising Star nominee Rina Sawayama.

Dunstone, one of IQ’s 2020 New Bosses, joined X-ray from Live Nation in 2014. Her roster also includes Kelly Lee Owens, Places and Faces, Maxo Kream and Lancey Foux.

“We are very excited to be welcoming Sally into the Primary Talent International family” says Primary Talent managing director Peter Elliott.

“Sally is an agent I have admired and wanted to work with for a long time”

“Sally is an agent I have admired and wanted to work with for a long time,” adds Matt Bates, director of Primary and head of international for parent company ICM Partners. “She has an exciting contemporary roster of clients and has a huge future ahead of her. We are thrilled to welcome her into the ICM/Primary family.”

Comments Dunstone: “What ICM and Primary have put together over the past year has not gone unnoticed in the concerts world, and I am excited to join the team with my talented roster of artists and keep the momentum going.”

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The New Bosses 2020 – the latest edition of IQ’s annual celebration of the brightest young talent in the live business today, as voted for by their peers – was published in IQ 93 this month revealing the twelve promising promoters, bookers, agents, A&R and production experts that make up this year’s list.

To get to know this year’s cream of the crop a little better, IQ conducted interviews with each one of 2020’s New Bosses, to discover their greatest inspirations and proudest achievements, pinpoint the reasons for their success and obtain advice for those hoping to be a future New Boss. Snippets of the interviews can be found in the latest IQ Magazine, with all interviews being reproduced in full online and on IQ Index over the coming weeks. Catch up on the previous New Bosses interview with Artur Kasper from Der Bomber Der Herzen here.

Our next New Boss is Sally Dunstone (30), an agent at X-ray Touring in the UK. Admitting to a lifelong passion for live music, Dunstone moved from Barnsley to London to study music and events management at university. After completing many short-term internships and spells as a casual broadcast assistant across various BBC programmes, she joined Live Nation as a receptionist. After working a year at Live Nation, she moved to X-ray six years ago and has been building an impressive roster ever since.

What are you working on right now?
I am currently working on implementing live strategies for my roster at X-ray. I am grateful to work with a broad spectrum of artists including but not limited to, Jack Harlow, Rina Sawayama, Kelly Lee Owens, Places+Faces, Roosevelt, Maxo Kream, Walt Disco & many more. A part of my job that I love is having a varied roster and I take pride in catering to the differing needs of my clients.

What are some of the highlights of your career to date?
It’s tough to ring-fence specific moments as there have been so many incredible experiences throughout my career so far. The shows that mean the most to me are the ones which feel like a significant turning point in an artist’s career.

A few that immediately come to mind are Places+Faces at KOKO, Rina Sawayama at Heaven and Kelly Lee Owens’s late-night set at End of the Road 2019.

Kelly’s show at End of the Road was the final live show of her first album campaign. The set was flawless, and the crowd had incredible energy. It felt like a celebration for all the team’s hard work on the first album and the beginning of an exciting new chapter for the next album.

Walt Disco’s show at AMP Presents in March also has a poignancy for me as it was the last gig I went to before Covid-19 took hold and venues closed.

What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learnt working in live music?
Never be afraid to ask questions or take advice. Learning from my colleagues has helped benefit my clients greatly throughout my career.

“Right now, I’m concentrating on ensuring that all bases are covered for my clients in all eventualities”

Did you always want to be an agent?
I have been passionate about music for as long as I can remember. From attending Leeds Festival and seeing The Strokes for the first time aged 11, I knew that live music was my vocation. As a teenager, I would often attend three or four shows a week and did whatever I could to get my foot in the door within the industry.

What impact has Covid- 19 had on your job?
The impact of Covid-19 across the entire industry has been profound. It has been heartbreaking to see the rug pulled from under the live sector and very little financial support to help venues and businesses continue operating.

From a business perspective, there is a lot of uncertainty in the industry right now, so I am concentrating on ensuring that all bases are covered for my clients in all eventualities. I am also focusing on being proactive and continuing to keep the long term goals and vision for each artist at the forefront of everything.

Do you have a mentor in the industry?
I am grateful to Beckie Sugden who has provided endless support to me throughout my time at X-ray and taught me a lot about being an agent and the wider industry landscape in general. Beckie’s determination continues to inspire me every day. I have also learned a lot from Josh Javor at X-ray whose encyclopaedic knowledge of venues, capacities and festival routings never ceases to amaze me. Both Beckie and Josh have done a lot to shape my career and I appreciate that greatly.

“I have had many doors slammed in my face over the years and have always found a way to get myself in the room”

What does the live music industry do well, and what can we do better?
The live music industry still has a long way to go in terms of equality and diversity. There have been improvements in recent years however there needs to be more inclusion and opportunities for BAME and LGBTQ+. There is also space for attitudes towards women in the workplace to improve and I would welcome seeing more women in senior management positions.

What advice would you give to someone who’s new to the business?
Ask questions and take advice. Believe in yourself and be determined. I have had many doors slammed in my face, figuratively and literally, over the years and have always found a way to get myself in the room. Where you can, surround yourself with people you enjoy working with. To build a viable business for yourself, you are going to need to work a lot of hours and this is so much easier when you like the people you work with.

What are the biggest challenges you’re facing currently?
Much like all the live sector, navigating Covid-19 and the unchartered territory is currently the biggest challenge I face.

Where would you like to see yourself in ten years’ time?
I plan to continue expanding and building my artists’ careers and still see myself working as an international touring agent.

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The New Bosses 2020 – the latest edition of IQ’s annual celebration of the brightest young talent in the business – launches today, celebrating the 12 most promising 30-and-unders in live music, as voted by their colleagues around the world.

This year’s list, the 13th, follows the most engaged voting process to date, with hundreds of people taking the time to nominate their New Boss picks.

Our distinguished dozen this year comprises promoters, bookers, agents, A&Rs and production experts, all involved in the international business and each of whom is making a real difference in their respective sector.

In no particular order, the New Bosses 2020 are:

• Filippo Palermo, founder, Untitled Group (AU)
• Madie Cavilla, senior account manager, Paradigm Talent Agency (UK)
• Virág Csiszár, international booking manager, Sziget (HU)
• Alexandra Ampofo, promoter, Metropolis Music (UK)
• Bilge Morden, agent, CAA (UK)
• Kedist Bezabih, promoter, FKP Scorpio (NO)
• Jolien Augustyns, junior promoter, Live Nation (BE)
• Camila Salinas, booker, Primavera Sound (ES)
• Artur Kasper, agent, Der Bomber Der Herzen (DE)
• Sally Dunstone, agent, X-ray Touring (UK)
• Bertie Gibbon, A&R, ATC Live (UK)
• Joe Skarzynski, production coordinator (US)

“The class of 2020 is undoubtedly enduring the strangest, most challenging time of their careers,” writes IQ editor Gordon Masson, “but the hard work that they are putting in to ensure that the business globally is ready to resume at the earliest possible opportunity is generating a lot of enthusiasm among their peers, who have recognised them as future industry leaders.”

As in previous years, full interviews with each of the 2020 New Bosses will appear online in the coming weeks. However, short individual profiles of each New Boss can be read now in issue 93 of IQ Magazine, embedded below:

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